Ice particles in the summer mesopause region can be observed from ground either optically by lidars (then often called Noctilucent Clouds, NLC) or using radars (then called (Polar) Mesospheric Summer Echoes, (P)MSE). Lidar observations are limited to larger particles (> 10 nm), while radars are also sensitive to small particles (< 10 nm). The combination of lidar and radar observations allows for some insight into the size distribution within the clouds and by this for an indirect information about the history of the cloud. We will present a first comparative statistical study on ice cloud altitudes and thickness from simultaneous and co-located observations of NLC and MSE at midlatitudes (Kühlungsborn/Germany, 54° N, 12° E). Soundings are carried out by the IAP RMR lidar and the OSWIN VHF radar. We find a large agreement of the lower edges ( z low NLC and z low MSE ), showing a mean difference of only 40 m. The mean difference of the upper edges z up NLC and z up MSE is ~ 400 m, which is much less than expected from observations at higher latitudes. In contrast to high latitudes, the MSE above our location typically do not expand much above the NLC. In addition to earlier studies from our site, this gives additional evidence for the supposition that clouds containing large enough particles to be observed by lidar are not formed locally but are advected from higher latitudes. During the advection process, the smaller particles in the upper part of the cloud either grow and sediment, or they sublimate. Both processes result in a thinning of the layer. Nucleation of new ice clouds (visible as high MSE) rarely happens at the same time as the NLC events.